Movement Questions?

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Movement Questions?

Postby Divet » Wed Sep 28, 2016 7:03 pm

Pg 52 “Characters can also choose to run in round based movement.”
Pg 53 “A character may move his encounter movement and attack the same round,
but any further distance takes his entire action for the round.”

So a character can't attack while running? Charge (running) and then melee in the same round?
A Mule 120' (40') meets a Hell Hound 120' (40'). They are 60 ft apart. Hell Hound wins initiative, runs up to the Mule, but can not attack since its movement has been over its encounter movement of 40'. The Mule runs its full movement of 120'. No matter who wins initiative in the subsequent rounds, the Hell Hound can never attack because its movement will always take the entire action for the round.

Pg 52 “In this case, they can move their full movement in 1 round, but can only maintain this speed for 30
rounds, or 1/2 of a turn. This kind of movement is exhausting, and the characters will have to rest for 3 turns
afterward.”

If a character moves at running speed for only 2 rounds, is 3 turns of rest required? Or is it when you only hit 30 rounds?

Pg 53 “FULL RETREAT occurs when a character moves backwards at a faster rate than 1/2 of encounter movement. The character
making the movement forfeits his attack this round, and his opponent attacks with a +2 to hit.”

What are the penalties if a character turns and runs away, instead of full retreat? Why would a character chose to back away in full retreat, instead of running?

Pg 53 “Any attacks made on characters from behind ignore the influence of the attacked character's shield, if any.”

Is this the only bonus when you attack from behind? Attacking a character without a shield from behind, results in no bonus?
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Re: Movement Questions?

Postby Divet » Sat Oct 01, 2016 5:46 pm

Does anyone have any house rules or suggestions to fix these problems/questions?

Even if it's a Kobold 60' (20') vs a Hell Hound 120' (40'). The Hell Hound is twice as fast as the running Kobold and can literally run rings around it, but it can not attack.
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Re: Movement Questions?

Postby merias » Sat Oct 01, 2016 6:35 pm

You're forgetting that encounters within 5' put the opposing sides into combat. Initiative is the key to resolving situations like this. In your example, when the hell hound and mule encounter one another, they are determined to be 60' apart. At that point, the LL rolls surprise (if indicated) and then initiative. Let's say neither is surprised. If the hell hound wins initiative, he can move 40', putting him at 20' distance, still too far away to attack, since he has no way to make a missile attack. If he runs his full movement that round, he cannot attack but gets within melee distance (5 feet). At that point, the two are technically in combat, and the mule can do one of the following on his turn:

    * Move his 120', but it would be considered to be a full retreat from combat, and would entitle the hell hound to a free attack at +2.
    * Stay within combat range and attack the hell hound.
    * Move 20' back (half his encounter movement) and still attack, with a fighting retreat.

If the mule chooses to run the 120', the two would be out of combat (if the mule survived), and if the mule won initiative the second round, and chose to move his 120' again, he would be running away and you would have a chase situation. Even though the movement rates are the same, you would then be governed by monster reaction (dungeon) or the wilderness chase table.

If the mule chooses to do a fighting retreat, the next round they will be 20' apart and either could move and attack the other in the same round, if they won initiative.
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Re: Movement Questions?

Postby Divet » Sun Oct 02, 2016 2:42 pm

So the rules paraphrased are: A character does not get an attack, if they move over their encounter distance, unless the character is within 5 ft (combat distance) of an opponent who is in full retreat?

Does the same apply to missiles? Two archers 60' (20') are engaged in a duel at the distance of 100 feet. Archer A decides to run away at full retreat at 60'. Archer B chases at 60'. Would the Archer B get a missile attack at +2, even though he is over his encounter distance?

A character is in melee combat with an Orc that trying to full retreat. The character announces they intend to run with the Orc, within 5 ft – in order to technically stay in combat. The character wins initiative. How is character movement handled now? The Orc has not moved yet because it has lost initiative.
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Re: Movement Questions?

Postby merias » Sun Oct 02, 2016 4:58 pm

Divet wrote:So the rules paraphrased are: A character does not get an attack, if they move over their encounter distance, unless the character is within 5 ft (combat distance) of an opponent who is in full retreat?


A character _never_ gets to attack if they move move over their encounter distance. There are no exceptions. So if you charge into melee range from afar, you do not get an attack, but your opponent gets to attack you, assuming they do not move, or assuming they move less than their encounter distance.

Does the same apply to missiles? Two archers 60' (20') are engaged in a duel at the distance of 100 feet. Archer A decides to run away at full retreat at 60'. Archer B chases at 60'. Would the Archer B get a missile attack at +2, even though he is over his encounter distance?


Yes and no, but this is why I say that initiative is important, because if archer B wins initiative, he can move his encounter distance of 20' and fire his bow at a range of 80' before A can run away.

A character is in melee combat with an Orc that trying to full retreat. The character announces they intend to run with the Orc, within 5 ft – in order to technically stay in combat. The character wins initiative. How is character movement handled now? The Orc has not moved yet because it has lost initiative.


That's a bit contrived, because as a ref, I'll never announce to the players what the bad guys intend to do ahead of time. However, what can happen is that the orc can fail a morale check on his (lost) initiative, and run away. So here is how that would work:

round 1:
PC wins initiative, attacks as normal.
The orc survives, but fails a morale check and runs.

round 2:
The PC gets a free attack at +2 on a retreating enemy OR he can run after the orc at full move, presumably keeping up with him (assuming their movements are equal). He cannot do both.
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Re: Movement Questions?

Postby Divet » Tue Oct 04, 2016 12:31 am

I may be misunderstanding something very basic.

In the first example: when the hell hound won initiative and ran over its encounter movement to catch up to the mule, you stated that the mule had an option of fleeing
but it would be considered to be a full retreat from combat, and would entitle the hell hound to a free attack at +2.

How can the hell hound attack when it has gone over its encounter movement for the round?

round 1:
PC wins initiative, attacks as normal.
The orc survives, but fails a morale check and runs.

round 2:
The PC gets a free attack at +2 on a retreating enemy OR he can run after the orc at full move, presumably keeping up with him (assuming their movements are equal). He cannot do both.

Is the +2 attack against the Orc that occurs in round 2 a missile attack? By the start of round 2 the Orc is up to 120' away from the PC.

I appreciate you trying to explain this game system.
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Re: Movement Questions?

Postby merias » Tue Oct 04, 2016 1:44 am

Divet wrote:How can the hell hound attack when it has gone over its encounter movement for the round?


He can't - the attack happens at the start of the next round.

Is the +2 attack against the Orc that occurs in round 2 a missile attack? By the start of round 2 the Orc is up to 120' away from the PC.


No, a regular melee attack. It's just a rule in LL (and B/X) that if someone attempts to flee from a combat, the opponent gets a parting shot at +2. Since you can't attack twice in one round, that parting shot has to happen at the start of the next round. At least, that is how I interpret the rule - in effect, the person fleeing has given up initiative for the next round and leaves themselves open to attack.

I appreciate you trying to explain this game system.


No problem!
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Re: Movement Questions?

Postby Divet » Thu Oct 20, 2016 12:20 am

I see mention of a “free” attack in Holmes but not in Moldvay, Mentzer, Cook etc.

It seems strange that a full retreat would allow a melee attack from the loser of initiative, even though the winner of initiative has already run away.

A possible solution might be that a full retreat means an automatic loss of initiative, so that all melee attacks occur while they are actually within 5 ft.
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Re: Movement Questions?

Postby Gnarri » Tue Dec 13, 2016 10:09 pm

Divet wrote:
So a character can't attack while running? Charge (running) and then melee in the same round?
A Mule 120' (40') meets a Hell Hound 120' (40'). They are 60 ft apart. Hell Hound wins initiative, runs up to the Mule, but can not attack since its movement has been over its encounter movement of 40'. The Mule runs its full movement of 120'. No matter who wins initiative in the subsequent rounds, the Hell Hound can never attack because its movement will always take the entire action for the round.

...

Pg 53 “FULL RETREAT occurs when a character moves backwards at a faster rate than 1/2 of encounter movement. The character
making the movement forfeits his attack this round, and his opponent attacks with a +2 to hit.”

What are the penalties if a character turns and runs away, instead of full retreat? Why would a character chose to back away in full retreat, instead of running?



The B/X rules does not cover this stuff very well. LL does not strive to fix the gaps. Some houseruling is almost necessary on a few places in the rules, but one can try to do it with as few as possible.

1. If you are going to retreat (move at full speed or run away), make a fighting withdrawal or cast a spell, you must announce this _before_ initiative is rolled. Basically, you can translate this to a Declaration Phase, were you announce one of the three above or "Everything Else" (melee, ranged, other stuff that does not need to be declared). Four options. Many call the last one for "Melee" instead.

(This is an interpretation of the rules text. It actually says that it is only if you are in melee you need to declare retreat or FW, but since you can get into melee after a failed initiative roll - you basically need to declare anyway, if you want to run away regardless).

2. There are no attacks of opportunity in B/X. There is not any new rules about this in core LL text either. If you are in melee and declares Retreat and run, and you win initiative, then you are free to go - no attack in the back. If you lose initiative, however, then the enemy will do his attack first - after that you can run.

(But even Dan Proctor (i think?) mentioned that he gives an attack of opportunity if someone is running away, so houseruling about this is very doable.)

3. Played by the book, the Chase Rules would start to apply as soon as someone has made a Full Retreat running - otherwise it is impossible to catch up to your victim if he runs away and has equal movement rate. The wording in LL in "Chases in the labyrinth" is that the PC:s can only catch up to monsters with a lower movement rate - so, still impossible. "Chases in the Wilderness" gives a "50% chance of cathing the victim up close" or something. Not clear if this is melee or just a new encounter with distance between. The wording in B/X is very similar. (I suspect that even Moldway and his table made rulings about this stuff, not always playing strictly by the book).

The example: The mule declares Run, the Hell Hound declares "Melee" (which allows it to move and attack, run towards the enemy but not attack, etc) . Problem is unsolvable as you mentioned above. If he cathes up, the mule will run again etc.

However, labyrinths often leads to doors you need to open - run interrupted. Wilderness chases can also leave you cornered in a ravine or something.

I also think that the rules are supposed to give PC:s with a high movement rate a _very_ good chance of getting away if they choose to run. The game is very deadly anyway. If the monsters run, you still get xp so no need to chase. And the movement penalty form wearing armour is also the only penalty you get, otherwise armour is always good, so sort of balanced that it really influences chances of running.

That said, I houserule this with different ideas like lowering the Run to 2 x movement, allow Charge after run and stuff like that.
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